© 2007 Antonio Moya, Carmelo Martínez, Santiago Rodríguez, Eduardo Altuzarra, Andrés Pérez
© 2007 Urantia Association of Spain< /p>
By various authors
Participants
Antonio: Dear friends: allow me to gently ring the alarm clock: paper 112, point 3, last paragraph:
“Those who go to the mansion worlds are not permitted to send messages back to their loved ones. It is the policy throughout the universes to forbid such communication during the period of a current dispensation.” (UB 112:3.7)
Comments: There is no way to know for sure if there is life after death. Why prohibit this type of communication? What is the compelling reason to ban it? Note well that it says that it is prohibited IN ALL UNIVERSES… during the period of the current dispensation (ie, while we live). But, during the next dispensation, do they authorize it? I doubt it. I insist: According to you, what is the compelling reason that the Creators have to PROHIBIT this type of messages from our relatives or friends who have left?
Carmelo: At first glance, it might seem that this isolation of the “mansioners” during the current dispensation is to preserve the faith, that is, not to see and believe. But this makes more sense on planets like ours than on “normal” ones, where communication with midwayers and celestial beings assigned to the planet is common.
That is why it seems to me that the reason could well be to not allow interference from beings who have already reached the first “heavens” with the affairs of the planet where they previously lived and with which they still have sentimental relationships (not to mention other possible and more prosaic ones such as inheritances) Earthly affairs are a matter of those who are still in the flesh and no longer of those who have passed away (an expression that really has a literal meaning) In line with what Antonio raises, I take the opportunity to talk about UFOs and communication with beings from outside the Earth. Before reading the “bill” I was convinced of the existence of intelligent life (?) on other planets and that some of these civilizations had enough technology to travel from their planet to ours, and in fact they did. The UFOs, of course, were their ships. After reading the “bill” I am no longer so clear; the fact that beings of flesh and blood visit us, beings in their first life, because the existence of life on other planets, that is indisputable for me. There is also the fact of morontia and spirit transports. And I ask myself and I ask you, are the UFOs the material vehicles of the most advanced civilizations or are they the transport personalities (seraphim and others) that manifest themselves in our sight from time to time?
Santiago.: I agree with Carmelo that our protection against incursions that would undoubtedly favor some to the detriment of the interests of others prevail; think that the beings that would contact us would be only a little higher on the scale of perfection than we are here, and I doubt they would be skilled enough to be fair to everyone. And I think that later on, on the path of spiritualization, perhaps they will see clearly that it is better for everyone not to interfere…in “worldly” matters.
On the subject of UFOs, I have thought about it many times, and I tend to believe that either they are superior beings that we see in certain circumstances, since it seems that travel between stars is not so easy for human bodies, and once more I think again that if they isolate us it is for a good reason, or else with the distances between worlds they make sure that if contact is established the most advanced civilization has had to make enormous material progress, and at the same time spiritual (go further or less even with the material), so that they are able to observe, study and above all refrain from “interfering” in the affairs of other worlds. If it were not so, I think that somehow they would prevent their contact.
Each race, each civilization has to seek its ascent in the evolutionary scale. Perhaps when we are mature enough we will come to understand that everyone has the right to decide their destiny, and thus the achievements will be their own and not others’.
Antonio: I’ll leave the issue of communications with the “dead” for another time. After reading your opinions, I have to think about them and sleep on them. I will inform you…
So I go to the subject of UFOs, which Carmelo has raised. As you know, I have studied this subject in depth and have worked a lot on it. There are many aspects of this topic that are “paranormal.” For example, the FACT that at the beginning of the 20th century obscure science fiction writers wrote books about aliens, ships, close encounters, effects, etc.etc., and that 40 years later THAT VERY thing they wrote happened in reality, lived in their flesh by witnesses from various countries. Of two things, one: Either the aliens influenced the writers to write what they wrote, or the aliens read those science-fiction novels and put on a theater, adjusting everything to what the old novels put. The thing is cool…
In this matter there are several things to take into account:
If “they” didn’t want to, we wouldn’t even know they exist. It would be enough for them NOT to show themselves to us.
If they show themselves, it’s because they want to.
And if they do (as indeed they have), it is for some purpose.
I am convinced that ALL the UFO appearances that have occurred (thousands and thousands) were a pure theatrical performance, a theater. Nothing the witnesses saw (and told us) was real. Everything was a theater, set up by these unknown entities (for example, the story of the damaged UFO. They spent the whole night circling the UFO with tools in their hands, and at daybreak, when the authorities were going to come, they plaf , walked out and disappeared into the sky) A theater, but for what purpose? Some ufologists claim that in order to “make us aware that there are other realities.”
Another question is: who are they?
There have been too many UFO cases to be about one (or several) civilizations that have come to take a tourist tour here, and then disappear. And what about the cases of past centuries? Too many UFOs, too many landings. They are probably not from outside, but are here with us from the beginning (this has been said by a scientist) And if so, as it seems, who is with us from the beginning? The scientist does not know it, but we do: the intermediate beings. I suspect that perhaps they are the ones who set up these theaters to make people aware that there are other realities. And that they are also the ones who mount the theaters of the Marian apparitions (which number in the thousands), and perhaps of other unexplained phenomena. It’s the most plausible theory I’ve come up with. The one with the aliens doesn’t add up at all. Regarding aliens, I recently read an article by Beatriz Gato-Rivera, from the CSIC’s Institute of Fundamental Mathematics and Physics, which I find extremely interesting, especially coming from an official scientist. He goes on to say that all our projects to search for extraterrestrial civilizations are doomed to failure, because any superior civilization that existed would camouflage their planet for security reasons, and no outside observer could detect signs of civilization on that planet. We would only get distorted data (by “them”) that would make us give up.
The scientist says that in our galaxy there are billions of stars much older than the Sun. Consequently, there must be many civilizations that will take us thousands or millions of years ahead. And that these civilizations do NOT contact primitive civilizations like ours.
One more reason to think that UFOs are NOT aliens.
Eduardo: I’m not going to remove reasons. I think that Carmelo and Santi have a respectable opinion and in principle I agree. Now, I don’t quite understand that of a current dispensation or dispensation. I want to think that it refers to our “primitive” time, right? And in quarantine.
I believe that a “ball” that is not in quarantine has not had “incidents” throughout its entire evolutionary development. On a planet where the different Personalities have been arriving at their “time” - that is, Planetary Prince, Adam and Eve, Magisterial Son, etc. - many of its inhabitants, if not all, will be allowed certain communications. Let’s think that these beings are very well instructed by the corresponding personalities and if their faith is not as great as ours, whatever the circumstances, they do have to be convinced that there is eternal life after death and I, If I found myself in that situation, I wouldn’t hesitate much.
Antonio, I’m sorry, I can’t “get” what the compelling reason is. Do you know? If so, don’t make us suffer anymore and tell us something. Please.
As for aliens, I think that this topic has a lot of “crumbs”, right? Think for a moment that the news has been and is very manipulated and very misinterpreted. Ever since I read the UB, I stopped thinking of aliens as evil beings or invaders. For me they are the personalities “out there” who visit us, protect us and try to help us in their own way.
Antonio: Dear Eduardo, dear friends:
“In all universes there is a policy of prohibiting this type of communication during the current dispensation period”. UB 112:3.7 Our current (current) dispensation is from when Jesus came to… whenever. Communications between the people of this era are prohibited. But what about between the people of the previous era and those of the next era? Well, in fact, it is also prohibited. Andón and Fonta were prohibited from sending us a message (Doc. 63, penúltimo párrafo) when they found out that this revelation was going to be released to us. “They” say it, because if they hadn’t said it, we wouldn’t know. I smell that the prohibition is permanent, during all the eras of a planet. Because? Well, I have no idea, dear Eduardo.
On the “normal” worlds, they have the Planetary Prince 100, Adam and Eve, and all their progeny, living there for thousands of years. At least they have the evidence there present of some extra-planetary and “immortal” beings, apart from the fact that those humans have more cultural and spiritual preparation. I do not believe (as Carmelo says) that these humans communicate habitually with the midwayers and the celestial beings assigned to the planet. I don’t believe it. But it doesn’t matter…
To me, the reasons given by Carmelo, and later endorsed by Santi (who in turn has not given other more original reasons), seem “weak”. I am not saying that these reasons are not valid, but they seem rather secondary to me, as something that comes in addition. But it does NOT seem to me that those are the MAIN WEIGHT reasons that the Creator Son has for prohibiting such communications. Rather, I suspect that these reasons have to do with the question (among other perhaps more important questions, which escape me) that “NOT everyone survives.” - Have you received communication from your grandfather? -Yes, and you of yours? -I don’t. How odd! (If the guy hasn’t been revived, how is he going to communicate?). On the other hand, if most people don’t get resurrected until 2,000 years later, how the hell are they going to get in touch with their contemporaries, when they’re all napping?
In the end, I continue as at the beginning. Why isn’t my grandfather allowed to send me a message? That way I would know that there is life after death… I don’t want you to tell me where you hid the money, or that you had deceived my grandmother. No. But, “son, that you know that I am alive, with another body, and on another planet.” Stop. End of message. Next Please! Especially as we are, and in the world we live in (Urantia, the shitty universe of Nebadon).
Carmelo: I have strongly suspected for a long time that the Marian apparitions are a thing of the intermediates, but I had never before thought that the so-called UFO phenomenon could also have the same origin. And it doesn’t seem like a crazy idea to me, especially after considering Antonio’s reasons. I do not forget that we can think that such phenomena have been taking place since the remotest antiquity, but secondary intermediates have been on this planet (and were born here) for more than 37,000 years. That “theater” thing and the possible reasons for doing it is something I’m going to think about because it seems to me a very interesting hypothesis.
My reasons for the ban on communications from the mansion worlds do not seem weak to me. Establishing communication between this world and the mansion worlds seems to me to go against the natural order of life. Let me explain: in this, our first life, it is intended (I think) that we make the first effort of personal evolution, which would consist of being born and being animals, feeling like animals, beginning by acting like animals, and overcoming our “animality” to begin the path to perfection from the lowest condition of minded beings (something that is not foreseen for other orders of personalities). It is part (the very first part) of the experience that the Father has planned for us to live and acquire for I don’t know what future plans. To establish a communication with the next step of our evolution would be to upset this natural order of evolution of the personality. Probably this prohibition is absolute within the dispensation of birth of each being, and relative, but almost absolute, in other dispensations (hence Andon and Fonta). And probably measures of this type will also be in the following steps of development (isolation with the constellation from the mansion worlds, with Salvington from the morontia worlds of the constellation, etc…); measures that are complementary to the ban on traveling to those worlds (they do not allow us to travel to our planet of birth while our dispensation lasts, and then yes, but with limitations)
There is also the fact that some are resurrected before the end of the dispensation and others must wait until the end, and it could be thought that the measure is intended to avoid unequal treatment, but I do not believe that this is or can be a reason, since the very fact of being repersonalized at different times is already in itself an inequality.
I believe that the reason for faith that I adduced in my first message may have some weight, but I believe that it is not significant.
I have understood that Antonio believes that it would not be bad to have proofs of the survival of the personality. I am afraid, dear Antonio, that we are not going to have them while we are on Urantia, and although it seems unfair to us, we know that it is not. We know that on the mansion worlds we totally discourage ourselves and we are compensated for the frustrations, deficiencies and sufferings that we have had to endure to fulfill the objectives of our first life (except for the purely animal part of sex, so let’s fuck, that’s two days). And we know that all this makes sense, and sometimes it’s the only comfort we can have. We have had to live (or have we chosen it?) in “the shitty universe of Nebadon”, as you say; we will have compensation for it and above all we will have a personality “marked” by this fact and that will be able to perform a series of functions that others cannot, something that will make us feel proud (and happy) for having fulfilled and are fulfilling the Father’s plan from the paper that has been assigned to us (or have we chosen?).
I do not think that the fact that some survive and others is not significant. I don’t know if there will be any that don’t survive in our dispensation, I tend to think not, but in any case that won’t matter after the mansion worlds. Those who do not survive will be as if they had not existed. (We can talk another day about this tendency of mine to think that we will all survive, at least those of this dispensation.)
Antonio: Dear Carmelo: nothing heavy. We appreciate everything you have to say about it. So thanks for taking the trouble to tell us.
Returning to UFOs, Marian apparitions and other such niceties, the theory that the authors are intermediate beings seems plausible to me, but beware, in the case of UFOs and other similar phenomena, they do so from a “non-religious” perspective, in contrast to the apparitions of the “Virgin”. In this way they cover a wider range of humanity, including scientists and non-believers.
I really have no idea who is responsible for all this various phenomenology, but I suppose whoever it is must have permission from “Above” to do so. Perhaps it is his way of contributing to the awakening of humanity. The truth is that their control of the situation is absolute: they have never made a mistake, because we have never been able to catch them.
Regarding the issue of tests, I’m afraid (like you) that here we will never have any. We depend entirely on faith, or unbelief. An extremely uncomfortable position, always oscillating, full of insecurities, and sometimes distressing. We are not totally unaware, but we are not all-knowing either. It’s funny living in the middle of those two extremes.
Santiago: Once again I agree with Carmelo’s comment about the reasons for things. It’s like everything, I suppose that the more experiential perspective you have, the more reasons you can capture to conclude that something is as it appears to be.
The issue of faith that you mention seems key to me for yet another reason. We all know how indolent and lazy we can be. What would happen if man knew with certainty of the existence of a life after death, and also that it would be fuller? How many would have the courage to continue their lives in a “vale of tears”, fighting with endless things, knowing for sure that, just by dying, a large part of those situations would disappear?
How to prevent the temptation to skip what is essential to learn in life in the flesh, to achieve other goals?
If today for the promise of 21 virgins we do what we do, with the certainty of something better, what would prevent mass suicides?
Let’s find what we are expected to learn and experience in this our first life, and maybe we will find the answer to why, of uncertainties.
In the energetic-material field, the fact of believing what we “see” is nothing but a certain illusion, since we have to trust our material senses and use our logic, or trust and believe in those we think know more than we do. .
I understand that it is a very similar process that takes place in people with FAITH in their God. That is, you put your trust in someone who you think knows more than you. I mean, that the mechanism that gives you “certainty” as an individual is similar, both speaking of “facts” or “material energetic realities” and of “spiritual realities”, and in both cases the validity or not (confidence or no) depends on the degree of reliability that you presuppose to the source, to the origin of the aspect of reality that you want to weigh.
In spiritual realities, I believe that neither here nor in other places will we have certainties like those we extract from nature itself, which we know from our own experience often deceives us.
The trust that we place in that superior being will depend on the degree of union with Him, and that trust is the guarantee of “certainty” in spiritual matters, just as knowledge of nature will give us confidence in obtaining and applying what is which we consider its laws.
Andrés: The comments that are made seem correct to me, with respect to both UFOs and Marian apparitions, although I would like to introduce several comments. In the first place, and in my opinion, I find a difference between the two aspects because I consider that they are different topics or aspects that are not related to each other.
While the Marian apparitions have an aspect of “walking around the house”, which may well be the intermediate ones as you say, because it is very childish, in my opinion, since they are always the same: “pray the rosary” so as not to go to hell etc etc. Not even my cousin, the one from the village, can see that sermon anymore! But if we look at it from the perspective that they are telling us from a way for everyone, for all ages, different ways of making us understand that there is another reality for whoever wants to understand, then and only from that point of view of things could one understand that way of saying things so simple. I have always thought that they are projections, as if a film were being projected to us with unknown means, since it is surrounded by small mists, at a height and with very monosyllabic messages.
Regarding the “UFOs”, according to my criteria I consider that they are other entities of greater growth and that, although it seems an incomprehensible way for us, I want to remember that it is more or less the same way that it is said in the Bible; that is to say, it seems to me that it is a message for all times, whether we understand it or not, because since we do not know how they think or what their criteria is, since they are more evolved, their way of acting is difficult to understand, but there is no doubt that they have a purpose that we did not finish “getting”.
Friend Antonio, probably and according to my lived experience, perhaps those deceased loved ones, in very specific things, have revealed small nuances to us that say a lot, but since we cannot demonstrate them, nor see them, nor touch them, well, it gives the coincidence that we did not finish assimilating it, not to say believing. And how to tell even your own friends that those experiences for you have been real or that at one point you believed it. Difficult, because your own friends ask you how you have been, if you were asleep or awake in which case it is a dream, or that you are beginning to “catch butterflies.” Difficult question because they are always personal cases and nothing can be extrapolated.