© 2007 Antonio Moya, Carmelo Martínez, Eduardo Altuzarra, Andrés Pérez, Santiago Rodríguez
© 2007 Urantia Association of Spain< /p>
| Holy places? (first part) | Luz y Vida — No. 11 — December 2007 — Index | News about the UAI International Conference and Spain Association |
By various authors
Participants:
- Antonio Moya
- Carmelo Martínez
- Eduardo Altuzarra
- Andrés Pérez
- Santiago Rodríguez
Carmelo: Dear fellow students: We know that the condition for survival is choosing to do the will of the Father. And the will of the Father is embodied in that immense plan that he has arranged for the creation in its entirety of space and time. We, in our current condition as larvae of ascendants, have a more than limited vision of that plan, so our choice to adhere to it is more by faith and intuition than by anything else. People have some vague notions of all this because of their religious beliefs; those who have them, of course, well others not even that. How can they make that choice? What can it mean in practical life on this planet?
To make a definitive, irreversible decision, you have to have a lot more information, you have to know a lot more, it seems to me. And that is not normally achieved in this world with its current degree of development. That final decision automatically means the merger with the adjuster. On planets like ours or more backward, few succeed; on more advanced planets there will be more who achieve it, not to mention on planets in light and life.
If that happens with ultimate survival, why should anything else happen with ultimate death? How, then, can it be established in those same planetary conditions that the final decision against it has been taken, which means disappearance and non-survival?
All this has a clear consequence for me: it is possible that after provisionally surviving, and already in the morontia worlds with more information and vision, there are those who decide not to continue. No indication in this regard is given in the book (or at least I don’t remember it). The only thing somewhat like it concerns the repersonalized children (as sexless material beings) in the probationary nursery, and those of the hundred from Caligastia who joined the rebellion and whose adjusters remain on Salvington in expectation.
Those are my reflections and my doubts. Let’s see what you think.
Antonio: People have some vague notions of all this because of their religious beliefs; those who have them, of course, well others not even that. How can they make that choice? They can not. Well, they don’t even know that you have to choose something. They are totally unaware of what we know. And we know it only thanks to the Book, because outside of it, as far as I know, there is no information about it. All this has a clear consequence for me: It is possible that after provisionally surviving, and already in the morontia worlds with more information and vision, there are those who decide not to continue. No indication in this regard is given in the book (or at least I don’t remember it).
I think there is some information. The following is from Doc. 112-5:
Though the cosmic circles of personality growth must eventually be attained, if, through no fault of your own, the accidents of time and the handicaps of material existence prevent your mastering these levels on your native planet, if your intentions and desires are of survival value, there are issued the decrees of probation extension. You will be afforded additional time in which to prove yourself.
If ever there is doubt as to the advisability of advancing a human identity to the mansion worlds, the universe governments invariably rule in the personal interests of that individual; they unhesitatingly advance such a soul to the status of a transitional being, while they continue their observations of the emerging morontia intent and spiritual purpose. Thus divine justice is certain of achievement, and divine mercy is accorded further opportunity for extending its ministry.
The governments of Orvonton and Nebadon do not claim absolute perfection for the detail working of the universal plan of mortal repersonalization, but they do claim to, and actually do, manifest patience, tolerance, understanding, and merciful sympathy. We had rather assume the risk of a system rebellion than to court the hazard of depriving one struggling mortal from any evolutionary world of the eternal joy of pursuing the ascending career.
This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all. But it does signify that all will creatures are to experience one true opportunity to make one undoubted, self-conscious, and final choice. The sovereign Judges of the universes will not deprive any being of personality status who has not finally and fully made the eternal choice; the soul of man must and will be given full and ample opportunity to reveal its true intent and real purpose. (UB 112:5.6-9)
You will agree that this “full and final” choice can hardly be made here. Not even we, who know something about the matter, can make this “full and final” eternal choice. How much less does he not even know that he has to make a choice!
Nobody here knows almost nothing, and those of us who know something are full of doubts. Those of “Above” know it well. Therefore, I do not believe that the criterion followed by those “Above” is that we have chosen to survive or not. I am inclined to think that they should follow other criteria. For example, the goodness or badness of people.
I always remember dictators. How can an individual have the audacity to grab all the power for himself, all the money for himself, imprison or kill his opponents, privilege only his family, and leave the entire population of America to die of disgust and misery? his country? One can be ignorant, but does one necessarily have to be bad (bad in the sense of doing harm to others)? All human evil is done out of selfishness: power and/or wealth is pursued for oneself. I don’t know how a dictator can talk about God and massacre his people (Saddam, Franco, Pinochet). And so we can go down into human evil until we reach the man in the street. The mason who cheats you on the price, charging you more than the work in your bathroom is worth. The businessman who pays his employees fairly and poorly, but then has a BMW and a villa with a pool on the beach. And so on. These are the consequences of atheism and the total lack of values (divine values, since human values (power and money) are all pursued).
To which we were going: How many survive? I have no idea. The same human wickedness is, or can be, a consequence of the same ignorance. And what can you do with an ignoramus (of cosmic things)? Are you going to condemn him forever? I do not think so at all. Reread UB 28:6.2: “the importance of the origin…”, “the origin is the basis of the reaction of the Gods…”, “The Conjunct Actor always takes note of man, the way he who was born”. And also reread UB 40:5.11: “The Gods who have ordered mortal man to rise… take note of his state and his needs…”
Therefore, the mercy of God can be such that the one who does not survive is because he is a cunt. In order not to survive, you have to be AGAINST spiritual progress. In our world, who is consciously?
I even have my own doubts about the survival of Judas Iscariot…
Eduardo: Carmelo asks how he can make that choice. Well, very simply, searching. Everyone has an “invisible friend” with them. What did you and all of us just look for? We are supposed to feel the “call” inside us, as I want to imagine everyone does, since we all have a “friend.” Those kinds of calls are only made by “the friend.” I spent twenty years searching, at the beginning I was looking for the “aliens” in the end I found The Urantia Book. On the other hand, for me, trying to do the will of the Father is not an easy task, but in my practical life, when I have done it, it has meant a lot.
I understand what Antonio is saying, but I don’t quite agree that “they can’t because they don’t know”. We all have an Adjuster, the Father tries not to lose any of his children, therefore if it is not in this world it will be in the next. They will let every ascending mortal know that Paradise can be reached and from that moment on, with its corresponding margin of time, they will have to choose.
In this world, all of us, thank God, have been taught from a very young age that God exists. Thanks to all the preachers, missionaries, and other personnel involved in spreading the “word of God” to every corner of the world, almost all of humanity knows that God exists. Whether you believe it or not believe it is another thing. You and all of us have chosen to believe in Him. We have searched until we got to know the most about Him and there we are, trying to do His will. I want to think that the lazy, the incredulous, the short of memory, etc. they are going to be given all kinds of opportunities to make them see that God exists and is attainable.
I tell you one thing. Ever since I became moderately aware of the UB text, I’ve always worried if a guy like me would one day survive on those worlds of God.
When I read Paper 2 - 3rd paragraph “La justicia y la rectitud” I was already somewhat affected. Later I stumbled upon the “inevitabilities”, my blood ran cold. Later with the concept of sin and iniquity, I came to say to myself: "Fuck, friend! for you who are a rebel, this will be more difficult than climbing the mythical mountain of Tourmalet by bike.»
Well then, consecutively as I read and tried to understand, a fairly clear idea of my “invisible companion” came to me, of psychic circles or cosmic levels, of God’s mercy, etc. and I came to the conclusion that with a little time, patience and faith, well, I think I’ve come to believe almost everything the UB says, except what I don’t understand. So I could well get to climb not only Tourmalet, but Montblanc or, if necessary, Everest on the fucking bike.
So, my friends: today, I am totally convinced that I am going to survive, I don’t know very well if they will repersonalize me on the third day, nor do I know how long it will take me, but I WILL get to Paradise. Well it’s me!
How many survive? Well, honestly I don’t get to know, but I think that the vast majority or I at least have that hope. 'Bad, good? Who decides? He contemplates us, observes us, does not intervene, I want to think that we are not doing it so badly, right? And if, as Antonio rightly says, the origin is taken into account, even less to think that the majority does not survive. In what a world our blessed mother has given birth! What a coincidence!
I want to know your opinion on what I expose below.
“Most Adjusters who have translated their subjects from Urantia were highly experienced and of record as previous indwellers of numerous mortals on other spheres. Remember, Adjusters gain valuable indwelling experience on planets of the loan order; it does not follow that Adjusters only gain experience for advanced work in those mortal subjects who fail to survive.” (UB 110:7.3)
I understand that when an Adjuster is wandering through the worlds of God, accumulating experience, in the first place it is because he has “lost” his “tenant.” I gather that later you can get more practice with other “borrowed” mortals. 'I’m wrong? He speaks of “most of the Adjusters.” Will they have been many or few?
Antonio: Eduardo, I answer the last part of what you say. Regarding the quote “Most of the Adjusters who have transferred their subjects outside of Urantia were very experienced and there is evidence that they had previously resided in numerous mortals from other spheres”, it does not imply that those mortals they did not survive. Not necessarily. They could be primitive mortals that the Adjusters do NOT fuse with. They are only lent to you during your mortal life. Then, if they survive, they will merge with a part of the Son or the Spirit.
Andrés: In my opinion, I think that we all pass the survival bar. Why am I saying this? Because we believe that God does not think like us, little beings limited in capacity, others in physique, and others lazy in solemnity. But if we have all eternity to learn, how can they ask us that, leaving the first world of creation, very screwed by the way with the mistakes that other beings superior to us made with greater capacity, experience and data, then we decide in this incarnation to make such an “important” decision.
On a certain occasion I read in another book that God’s mercy is so great that none of his children has yet been lost, referring to the annihilation of being or personality.
Since they do not provide us with much information in many aspects, I think that we will have to spend many lives, experiences on other planes to be able to make this important decision and above all, extensive information in the case of not wanting to survive, otherwise what we would lose in the case of making that decision as well as the pros and cons of that situation. But I believe that there has not been any case, of course, as I believe, of the greatness, the know-how and the magnanimity of “God”. Of course, it is my limited opinion according to the moment that I find myself within the evolution that I have had to live.
On this last occasion I very much agree with Antonio’s presentation and his nuances.
Carmelo: Dear friends: the quotes that Antonio makes clearly say that you can survive as an extension of the trial period, not definitely, and that reinforces my theory that we will all survive, in the first instance. Later, when we have more vision, more knowledge and a broader mind… that is something else. As Andrés says, this world is a true hell because of the mistakes of the heavenly beings that are supposed to have helped us. That will also be taken into account, I say, because “If there are doubts at some point…they invariably decide in favor of the personal interests of that individual”. Is there someone in this world about whom they have no doubts? I find it hard to believe.
Eduardo, I don’t think the inner friend helps too many people at this time. There are many people for whom religions do not make any sense. Spirituality makes them laugh; they consider it nonsense. No inner friend, no inner voice; pure nonsense, they think. The most sincere are simply atheists. The others close their eyes not wanting to see the end. They are lost; This makes, I believe, that it is not possible to determine what his decision is. There are doubts. Will behaviors like those described by Antonio be enough to determine that he has decided against the Father’s plan? I don’t know, but I tend to think not. That is why the paragraph that I copy below has always surprised me. Will the midwayers have enough perspective to know more or less someone’s chances?
The paragraph refers to the hopes of eternal life of one of the prostitutes that Jesus and Ganid met while in Corinth on their return from Rome. It is from paper 133. It says like this (forgive me for posting my translation?):
“Thus did Jesus and Ganid take leave of the women. So far the two courtesans had said nothing; likewise was Ganid speechless. And for a few moments so was Martha, but presently she rose to the occasion and did everything for these strangers that Jesus had hoped for. The elder of these two women died a short time thereafter, with bright hopes of eternal survival, and the younger woman worked at Justus’ place of business and later became a lifelong member of the first Christian church in Corinth.” (UB 133:3.10)
The underlining is mine.
Antonio: Carmelo, why do you say that the paragraph you copied below “has always surprised you”? What has been surprising to you?
For me, the fact that some women (from that time or from this) are prostitutes does not tell me anything about their chances of survival. Anyone knows the reasons that have led them to that life! Men are potential “whores”: We like (almost) all girls. And if we could… But women? Precisely sex is something secondary for them. And especially with strangers. So acting as prostitutes should not exactly be one of their passions.
As for everyone’s survival… I always remember that the L.d.U. He is the only one who has made it clear to me what God’s mercy is. And God’s mercy is his justice (the usual, pure and simple) softened by the release in our favor of “the way we were born” (from our heritage to our environment, passing through our abilities). Therefore, perhaps even tyrants are justified in the eyes of God. What happens is that evil, although it is the attitude of an individual, socially affects everyone around them. The acts are personal, but the consequences are social.
Carmelo: It surprises me, not because it refers to a prostitute or for any other personal condition (I have no prejudice in this regard, and we must remember the attitude of Jesus of Nazareth in this matter), but because they can be known or predict in any way the chances of survival of a person. In this case I am surprised because it is said, indirectly, that the midwayers have some means of foreseeing the chances of survival of the terrestrials.
As for evil, you are right, the consequences are social. However, the UB also teaches us that in evil there are opportunities, and even advantages, to grow as people. The Father is never the origin of evil, but I am not very clear about his relationship with him, precisely because it seems that good is obtained from evil and also in much greater quantity. Reread paragraphs UB 54:6.6 and UB 54:6.7 of section 6 of paper 54.
Santiago: I believe that the Father’s relationship with EVIL is null. That is to say, in terms of its origin and appearance, it inevitably occurs from the existence of free will in beings who have very short-sighted sights, flaunting their name of GOD, it does not prevent it, which is not the same as allowing it (? Does it happen against your will? Is it possible for something to happen against your will?). But it immediately puts in place mechanisms to alleviate the devastating effects of evil.
The fact that today the evil produced by Lucifer’s rebellion has become good, and this exceeds the evil caused, certainly does not make evil desirable, because much suffering has been generated in between that could have been avoided, but on the other On the other hand, it seems normal to me that with time the good generated surpasses the evil that appeared, since the evil was confined to a certain time period, and once it was overcome, the more time passes, the more good it accumulates, and yet the evil remained. confined.
How many survive?
I like to think that we will all have another chance, that they will wait for us to actually say NO in a fully conscious way, but what I read in UB 112:3.1 worries me.
It clearly warns of a spiritual death in life in the flesh. It seems that there is no choice but to admit that this is there, then surely it happens.
After Pentecost, every being with a normal mind (biologically and physiologically) receives the Adjuster as a child, and it is already known that the more rights, the more obligations.
I am sure that every individual (and now we are all) receives the guide of his Adjuster in an incessant way, the possibility of the existence of God is raised, regardless of the degree of sophistication with which that mind can conceptualize it, and if insistently during all life that individual systematically denies that possibility… will we be facing this type of spiritual death?
When the continuous and daily actions of that individual consist of going against the will of the Father inspired by that Adjuster in some way… wouldn’t that be earning non-continuity?
The truth is that this possibility is so plausible that it scares me a little…
What do you think?
Antonio: Dear Santi: what you cannot do is choose evil out of ignorance. Jesus, on the cross, said: “Father, forgive them, for they do NOT know what they are doing.” In fact, they did not know what they were doing. They did not know what they were missing (the ascension to God) by doing so.
You will agree with me that in this world, people are ignorant of cosmic things. How many people are cosmic conscious on this planet at the present time? Half the world or more lives in misery and all that occupies his mind is finding food. The other half of the world only thinks of wealth and luxury, atheized by a science that has become the dominant religion.
People are ignorant (of cosmic things). How can you deny eternal life to someone who chooses evil out of ignorance, who was born in a world in terrible spiritual conditions, without (cosmic) leaders, without spiritual tradition? This is a world left to itself, where men (and not gods) rule and run the world. What can you expect from people like that? Just bullshit.
I believe that we are hardly in a position to choose or reject eternal life. In fact, people don’t want to die, they cling to life however they can. How can they reject eternal life? I think people are disoriented, lost, and not without reason, because it has to do with the world we have inherited!
I believe, Santi, that God’s goodness and mercy (his love as a father) is above God’s justice. And what father is going to condemn his son to non-existence, without him being fully aware of what he is losing? And who is aware of what is lost, in this current world?
The spiritual death that you comment on is perhaps valid in the “normal” and enlightened worlds. But in this?..
Andrés: Dear friends, Santi, in UB 112:3.2 he says spiritual death (of the soul) when mortal man “finally” rejects survival; if it has been pronounced spiritually insolvent, “morontially” bankrupt etc, etc. I say that “finally” it will be after many experiences, and “morontially” after many experiences in the morontia life, that is, after death, I say. From which I deduce that many lives have to pass for the spiritual death to be carried out if the personality decides not to survive.
Santiago: Yes, Andrés, so far everything would be fine, but what I was worried about is on the next page. But, as Antonio rightly says, the concept of “mortal” may have to be expanded to include not only the inhabitants of the first (material) world, and perhaps we should continue to consider ourselves “mortal” even in the morontia worlds, until the Adjuster and personality are fused.
Andrés: From my way of seeing things, I think that all these comments that we have decided to make under the so-called Internet study have been enlightening in many aspects, which I am explaining to you.
With respect to how many survive, I have seemed to understand through reading the L.U. and from your comments that there are several forms, ways or paths that each man born in the worlds in evolution can take.
In the beginning, when the book had not reached my hands, I understood that all humans were equal and had the same opportunities in the eyes of God. That all created beings had the same opportunities and paths to the eternal Father. It seems that this is not the purpose of the creator, for each one of the beings in evolution, but, depending on the qualities of each evolutionary being at the time of birth or according to how we are “programmed”, as this will be our destiny or better nor worse. Each one is simply assigned according to their abilities and their will when choosing whether to survive, as it turns out that we take the direction of the Father, the Son or the infinite Spirit, not being better or worse, simply one direction or another, with full satisfaction in the upward career. But some will reach the presence of God and others will entertain themselves in the domains of the Son or the infinite Spirit.
If this is so, I was very wrong about the purpose that God has for each one of us, (according to my opinion of course). It’s not that I’m disappointed, but as Antonio says, the bar is very high and many times I don’t “get it”.
Carmelo: Andrés, who says we’re not the same? How come we don’t have the same opportunities?
All of us in this group have children. Do we want all our children to be cyclists OR riverside carpenters, OR lawyers (as poisonous as they are)? Of course not. Each one has their way. Are they different for us as our children? Of course not. We love them and we go out of our way exactly the same for all of them.
Creation, the Father’s plan, is based on variety, that is, on non-uniformity. No two people are exactly alike. And this is saying a lot. Let’s see: how many humans exist or will exist at the end of time? Take a look at page 167. The grand universe will eventually have 7,000,000,000,000 inhabited planets; take it that 15,000,000,000 humans came out of each one, throughout its history (on Earth to date it can be assumed that some 8,000,000,000 humans have lived or are living today).
Multiply both figures. What dizzy! Well, no two are exactly alike, and everyone has a place, a role, in creation. And all are equally children of the Father!
Does anyone feel inferior for following one path or another, instead of the one followed by the neighbor? There is no reason. What we don’t have here, what we don’t do here, what we don’t know here, we will have/will/know on the mansion worlds, if we still want it! Mansion worlds are COMPENSATION worlds. When we get out of them we will be equal in that sense, and yet no two people will continue to be the same; and also, as children, we will continue to be exactly the same in the eyes of the Father.
We will all see our desires and desires fulfilled, and we will all be happy for it. Even those who are fused with the Spirit or with the Son and do not have the immediate destination of reaching the Father. Each one is different and each one has different desires. To me, anything other than reaching His presence seems little to me. The “fault” lies with my adjuster; and my adjuster comes from Him. The desires must be conquered, and it takes time. The path to follow is adjusted to the way of being of each one, to the personality of each one, including those who do not fuse with the adjuster (who says that they will not end up reaching the Father, if they wish?).
Although this is not clear to us now, it will eventually be. You have to have the perspective of eternity, even if we never get to it (or do we?).
¶ References
- Light and Life Magazine (all old issues): https://aue.urantia-association.org/numeros-antiguos-del-lyv/
| Holy places? (first part) | Luz y Vida — No. 11 — December 2007 — Index | News about the UAI International Conference and Spain Association |