© 2009 Carmelo Martínez, Antonio Moya, Santiago Rodríguez
© 2009 Urantia Association of Spain
| Road to Paradise (poem) | Luz y Vida — No. 19 — December 2009 — Index | News from Urantia Association of Spain |
By various authors
Participants:
- Carmelo Martínez
- Antonio Moya
- Santiago Rodríguez
¶ Carmelo
Friends, does anyone dare to explain to me what the absonite is?
Yes, I know, the intermediate level between the absolute and the ite. But I lose myself All finite potentialities will be exhausted when the seven superuniverses complete their evolution, establish themselves in light and life, and the Supreme Being arises. Then there are the absonite potentialities and the universes of outer space. But what are space and time transcended? What will these universes be like, not finite but absonite? What will life be like in them? I can’t imagine. I can’t understand something that transcends time and space. The outer universes are there in a specific position in non-transcended normal space, at a specific distance from us. They evolve following the time of all life, our time not transcended, or not?
¶ Antonio
Dear friends: copying Carmelo’s phrase, I would like to ask: Does anyone dare to explain to me what morontia is? Because I can’t imagine it…
Who can imagine, or get an idea, no matter how small, of something that is not part of what can be experienced, of our experience?
I am rereading the first UB Documents. Can anyone get an idea of what the existential level is like? Can someone explain to me what infinity is, or how it is? Can anyone even glimpse what an eternal existence like that of the Gods is? Can anyone tell me what it is or what the absolute is like?
I’m afraid, dear Carmelo, that these concepts are just that, concepts. They serve to relate some things to others and so that we know that there is much more than the finite level that we know. To know where things start, where they run, and where they end. But in terms of getting an idea, having a glimpse, in my opinion it is impossible, because (I repeat) IT IS NOT PART of what can be experienced at our level. And everything that is not part of our reality, we cannot even imagine.
But we are not the only ones. The inhabitants of Havona could NOT get the slightest idea of what an ascending mortal would be like, an imperfect, evolutionary individual, until the first of them arrived in Havona, Grandfather Grandfanda. And that the Havonians are perfect and will have a thousand and one means more powerful than ours to speculate and imagine. Well, nothing, even then they couldn’t get an idea of what we would be like.
Dear Carmelo, what has not yet manifested (for us) is a card that the Deity has up its sleeve. So that we don’t get bored, and we are always discovering something new. It does not reveal it to anyone, and it is therefore unthinkable, unimaginable. Since the absonite is YET not part of our experience, we CANNOT imagine it or form a mental picture of it. In fact, I can’t imagine the morontia either, and it’s right there. How much less the absonite!
¶ Carmelo
Dear Antonio: the argument that it is inconceivable to us because it is outside of our experience has convinced me; and the example of the inhabitants of Havona has swept away all shadows of doubt. And the thing about the letter in the Deity’s sleeve so we don’t get bored fills me with illusion and hope for the future. I happily resign myself and wait for it to pass.
What I no longer agree with is the morontia. Certainly, there is a part of the morontia characteristics and activities that are outside of our experience and therefore inconceivable to us, but others are clearly a continuation of this life and can therefore be imagined. For example, eat. In the morontia you eat; it is not eaten, but it is eaten. Who says we won’t host celebratory dinners? The morontia body is like the material: eyes, hands, legs, etc. The morontia senses are more acute, but I can imagine the exquisite pleasure of beholding with morontia vision a beautiful black starry sky dotted with colored stars. True, there are other senses that do not correspond to those of the material body; those, we will have to wait to find out what they are. I can also imagine relationships with people, for example with you when we meet there. Or the music band that will be waiting for Eduardo when he wakes up in recognition of all that he has had to go through down here.
Speaking of awakening; it has to be the milk. Can you imagine: you have just closed your eyes and then you open them in an awesome place, surrounded by brilliant beings who have known you all your life, who have always been with you and who you are contemplating for the first time. After so many years of believing by faith, now you are there; Now you live in the first mansion world. You see it with your own eyes. I suppose faith will still be needed, but for us Urantians that will be a cake walk compared to what it is here.
I imagine many things of the morontia worlds; Of course, all of them are a continuation and extension of the things here.
¶ Santiago
Here’s my point of view, I hope it’s not a brick, but today it’s all I can see…
It is true that what we cannot experience is difficult to understand, but we can always “make an idea” that will surely be far from reality, but that we cannot experience something does not mean that we cannot understand it to some extent.
If we couldn’t get close to those concepts to some degree, they wouldn’t be presented to us. If they are there, it is because we can “understand something about them”.
I will try to make an outline of what I interpret about these concepts. Let me start with an everyday analogy:
It is easy for us (because we do it habitually) to represent in two dimensions (draw on a piece of paper) three-dimensional figures or concepts (figures with volume), two-dimensional (planes) or points and lines (one-dimensional) We could say that when we draw a “sphere” or a “cube” on a piece of paper, what we do is “project” that three-dimensional shape into lines that it will be relatively easy for our brain to visualize again as if it were a shape with volume, although in reality we are seeing a flat figure.
In other words, as the tool we have available to draw and represent is flat (paper and pencil), we sacrifice part of the information of the three-dimensional figure, which our own mind then represents, but in reality we cannot draw figures on paper. with volume, we can only represent them.
Now let’s think about some hypothetical beings that live on a huge (flat) sheet, which has wrinkles and that these beings are flat. All your expectations are to visualize things in your flat world.
If we were to roll a ball through their flat world, the inhabitants of that place would suddenly see a dot appear, which would grow to become a bigger and bigger circle and then begin to dwindle until it disappeared.
With this we would have a three-dimensional phenomenon, the ball that “crosses” the plane of existence of these flat beings, and they who experience a different and of course partial vision of the phenomenon: only what is within their reach as flat beings.
By the way, if there were one-dimensional beings on that plane, they would “see” a dot appear, become a line, wax and wane again, become a dot, and disappear again.
If these beings were intelligent, they could deduce things from their two-dimensional experience, and surely they would conjecture more or less accurate things from the experience.
Now we have to follow a parallelism, but with one more jump, it is as if we went from “space” (volume), to the “plane” and from this, to the “line”.
The Universal Father (and the rest of the Absolutes) are absolute, they occupy everything and are in everything. In the adventure of creating a finite and limited being, they had no choice but to “project infinity”, but infinity is so great and complex that the first projection, the first “attenuation” of Absoluteness, gave rise to the Absonite, and in this framework they created/existed beings, things and concepts. And the next attenuation of the (Infinity - Absonity) was the FINITE framework, the space-time framework that is familiar to us.
We appreciate the limitations of the finite, we have certain sizes, we occupy a space (we are limited by space), and we are conditioned by time. We cannot be infinitely fast, our speed is limited and therefore we need time to be able to move through space.
When you talked about absonite and non-finite universes, it seems to me that you contrast the fact of being absonite with the fact of being finite.
I understand that the “finite” is irretrievably contained in the Absonite, these two are a portion of the Absolute. That is why I “see” the universes of outer space as finite universes, but that (let’s say they are the areas of the flat world, through which things from the three-dimensional world pass), that is, we will contemplate phenomena that are of Absonite origin, although we are still “finite”. »(planes) we will only glimpse the expanding circle, to see the “ball” in that world, we must have achieved a degree of absonitude.
But of course I consider that the “finite” is no more than a region of the “absonite” in the same way that these two are of the “absolute” (volume, plane, line).
What is certain, as Antonio says, is that if we do not have experiences of this nature, it is difficult for us to think of phenomena that are of an absonite nature.
The evolution of these universes will be at a finite level (space-time) like what is familiar to us, apart from those other phenomena that can be projected from the absonite level of existence.
About “transcending” time and space, here is my vision:
Transcending space, I interpret it as being able to do something at the spatial level, without this space itself conditioning me little or nothing.
For example: imagine that we have “7” (it is a number like any other) millions of km of fiber optics. We hold both ends, one in each hand, apply a light to one end and view it in the other. The light has traveled that distance and appears on the other side. If we were beings for whom our framework of existence was limited to the interior of the optical fiber, we would say that the distance between the two points is 7 million km. If we are beings that transcend that spatial framework (we are the ones holding the cable), if we were interested we could consider -in addition to the first option- that the distance between the two points is one span (20 cm.)
In some way we have transcended space, that is, we “operate” or work outside of that space (absonite beings work outside of our spatiotemporal framework, which is why we say that they “transcend” that spacetime).
Transcending time, I am only able to visualize it with a kind of approximation to a phenomenon: I also interpret that transcending time means being able to do things that time does not influence, this for a finite being (me) is strange and difficult to understand. abstract, so I resort to the following simile:
For example, let’s imagine that a seraph (also an intermediate being) can move at the speed of light on the surface of our planet, which would allow it to circle the Earth several times in 1 second. Obviously we cannot say that they transcend time or space. They are conditioned to both, but for practical purposes and within the framework of our planet’s existence, in a fraction of a second they can be at the opposite of their current situation, and return to the same place before you blink, that speed allows them to almost transcend to space and time as far as their displacements are concerned. We could glimpse that for them the time to go and return does not count (it is so small…) For our personal phenomena, this interval of time is so insignificant that from our point of view we could suppose that in their displacements, they transcend time ( and also space)
¶ Carmelo
Nor is your point of view “one-armed”, Santi, but indeed what is not from our experience is unimaginable. We have to make similarities and parallels with other phenomena we know, as you do. But they are very good because they allow, not just to imagine, but to think about the characteristics of those states. The ends of the 7 km fiber optic. that they are within a few centimeters is definitive.
Thank you, Santi, what you say helps me. Granted, the finite is a “subgame” of the absonite, as this is of the absolute. Clear ideas; the ones that I like. And also agreed, the universes are and will be in “normal” space, and they evolve and will evolve in “normal” time.
It is the absonite beings that transcend time and space, but things continue in that spatiotemporal framework. The fiber optic thing is definitive to understand it (not to imagine it)
By the way, I had understood that when we are finaliters and we act in the universes of outer space, we will be absonite Or at least we will function as such, am I wrong? And that the beings that inhabit them will also be like that, right?
¶ Santiago
On pages 347 and 348 he makes it clear that the current (most frequent) destination of the Corps of the Finality is service in the administration of the worlds established in light and life, (it is part of the training), but the final destination that will be concurrent with the appearance of the Supreme (becoming seventh stage spirits) is completely unknown.
I interpret that the beings that are “born” in the universes of outer space will not be absonites from the outset. They will be the same as us and according to the place of birth: FINITE, although they will be subjected to new experiences and additional circumstances than what we have experienced, since everything possible that happens to finite beings will already have been done (the Supreme will be completed). ) The “new things” that happen to them will have to do with absonite experiences/phenomena that will “materialize in those places”, which will occur there, and the autochthonous beings will have the corresponding experience (reflected or projected) of absonite actions in a finite frame .
With time, everything possible will happen in the absonite frame and it will be projected in the finite frame, until all the possibility of events/experiences that are still evolutionary, is complete, with which the Ultimate will appear…
The Finalists will have had contact with and understood absonite beings (Transcendental), but it is not clear to me that there is a migration of characteristics and a passage from existence coming from the finite to something that has always transcended time and space (the Absonite). I understand that the achievement of the absonite has more to do with the possibility of working on that stage directly or through beings who can do so freely. That is to say: take it into consideration, count on it.
But it’s worth seeing if it says anywhere that a finaliter becomes an absonite.
¶ References
- Light and Life Magazine (all old issues): https://aue.urantia-association.org/numeros-antiguos-del-lyv/
| Road to Paradise (poem) | Luz y Vida — No. 19 — December 2009 — Index | News from Urantia Association of Spain |